Building a Business by Empowering E-Commerce Side Hustlers, with "Hustl" founders Ben and Paul
Join us in this insightful conversation with Paul and Ben, the founders of "Hustl", an innovative mobile-first software solution designed for e-commerce side hustlers. In this episode, they share their journey from concept to launch, discuss the growing trend of side hustles, and explain how Hustl aims to streamline and optimize the workflow for small sellers. They also delve into their marketing strategies, the importance of influencer partnerships, and their experiences in raising funds. Don't miss out on the valuable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs and investors alike!
Transcript
Paul and Ben, it's great to see you again.
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:Uh, been a little while.
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:Always lovely to see you both.
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:Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kick off
by just getting straight in into
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:the hustle, um, because obviously
it's an exciting business.
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:You guys are very excited about
it and, and I'm hoping that
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:people watching will be as well.
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:So why, what, why hustles?
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:Why side hustles?
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:Paul Bennet: I'm sure everybody listening
or watching will know somebody who's
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:doing a side hustle of some of some kind.
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:Um, I mean, when we looked in the,
the data of that and wanting for.
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:Adults in the UK are doing a
side hustle of some kind or
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:other, and more pertinent to us.
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:15% of those are doing an
e-commerce based side side hustle.
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:So it really is, you know,
something that's on the rise.
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:Martin Bysh: Um, and what, what kind of
side hustles are they typically doing?
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:Paul Bennet: Uh, I mean they are,
um, mean this very, very broad and I
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:think it's more like we've come across
all, all sorts in our, our time.
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:Um, you know, the weird and, and the
wonderful, all the ones that, um,
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:we've, we've spoken to are now on,
on the platform we've had, I mean,
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:honey from Ukraine, uh, being sold,
we've got, uh, gluten-free cakes.
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:Um, I mean there is, um, you know,
board games, dog calming oils.
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:I mean, there's everything that,
everything that you can think of.
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:Cards, jewel jewelry, it's,
it's, it's, um, you know, there's
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:Martin Bysh: so, so those
was dog calming oils.
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:It's an important one to come back to.
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:Yeah,
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:Ben Shipway: absolutely.
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:We, we can't attest to, we haven't
tried those, so we don't, we don't
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:know whether they work or not.
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:Um, but everything so far, as Paul
said, a whole range of things, uh,
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:right, right from across the spectrum,
even so far as things, uh, personal,
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:intimate creams, for example.
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:We've come across that
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:Martin Bysh: if you had to sum up
hustle , in a few sentences what it is,
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:who it's for . How would you describe it?
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:Ben Shipway: Hustle's a software,
uh, mobile first, uh, system,
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:um, predominantly aimed at
e-commerce, side hustle users.
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:Those users who are selling online, um,
in possibly in and around a day job.
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:They have the challenges of multiple
systems dealing with couriers, trying
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:to worry about shipping the right
order on the right day, and typically
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:in, in their evenings and weekends.
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:Um, and our aim is to, uh, create a
streamlined, optimized system, pulls
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:all that together on their mobile phone
so they can stay on top of all their
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:orders, get it done in, in half the
time, and, and claim some of that time
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:back either for themselves or maybe
to, uh, to help grow their business
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:and, and reinvest into their business.
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:Martin Bysh: And, and what led, what
led you to it as a business opportunity?
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:Paul Bennet: Well, I mean, we had,
um, obviously, uh, been working in e
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:e-commerce and we saw there was some real
intent from people that were searching for
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:some kind of help, um, but were not yet
ready to outsource their product because
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:they weren't doing the level of volumes,
um, or the amount of, of, of business.
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:And, uh, that was something
that piqued our interest and
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:we wanted to find out more.
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:Ben Shipway: Can I jump in
and add, add to that as well?
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:Um, I think on top of that, um, I
come from a product software product
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:background, very focused on creating
software that has impact for users.
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:And I think we, we, both of us, um,
from insight from both our career
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:history and our own experience,
um, as Paul said, everyone knows
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:someone who's doing side hustle.
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:We have these side hustles
in our family as well.
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:I think it's fair to say.
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:So we've seen some of the impact
of, of the evenings, the weekends,
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:the, the lost time, the, the stress
of potentially losing orders.
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:Um, and it, and it really felt like.
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:In this day and age, there should be
a software solution out there that
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:can really make a difference and
help people through these challenges.
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:Martin Bysh: I definitely see that,
I mean, we'll talk a bit a bit about
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:it later, but obviously we know each
other from Huboo which started really
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:trying to do something similar.
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:I didn't think it was about side
hustles, but actually a lot of
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:the people that were using it were
using it for their side hustles.
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:They were selling something on
the side, making a bit of money.
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:It wasn't their main job.
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:It was often something they loved doing.
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:And for some of them it
did grow into a business.
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:Um, and may, maybe we'll talk
a bit about that when we talk
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:about, about your backgrounds.
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:Um, but, but who, who, why are
people doing it in your experience?
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:Why are people doing side hustles?
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:Is it because they hope that one day
it's gonna be a business for them?
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:Is it something that's just
a hobby, something they love?
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:And does it have anything, do you think,
to do with the current circumstances,
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:the current economic challenges?
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:And, and do you think they're
gonna have any impact on the number
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:of people doing side hustles?
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:Paul Bennet: Yeah, so I think when we
did our research, we came across three
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:main reasons why people were doing this.
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:The first one is definitely about passion.
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:It was really about, you know, this
is something that I've loved doing.
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:It was a hobby.
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:Now can I make it some something?
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:That was definitely, there was
definitely something there.
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:There was, uh, the economic topic
that you, you talk about people
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:looking to supplement their income.
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:This is definitely second, second reason.
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:And then thirdly, many more people wanting
independence and to be their own boss.
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:And, uh, I think there was a.
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:Enterprise nation study, um, that we
came across, which are 35% of people
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:now are at least thinking about
starting their own, their own business.
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:So, you know, we're a, we're a, a
nation of entrepreneurs and, and people
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:are looking to do their own things.
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:So I think the combination
of those three, three things.
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:Martin Bysh: Do you think the working from
home culture is likely to result in more
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:people wanting to work for themselves?
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:I mean, you already had a,
have a measure of independence.
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:I wonder if that's stimulates,
uh, hustle culture.
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:Ben Shipway: I think that's a really
interesting question actually.
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:I think, you know, more flexible working
for sure has, has enabled people to,
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:to take on additional activity and,
and maybe a flexor side e-commerce
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:business around other work commitments.
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:Um, but I think probably the
biggest enabler we've seen is just
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:the rise of more social commerce.
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:So, uh, TikTok shop, Instagram,
selling on Facebook marketplace and
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:things like that, that's really put.
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:You know, being able to, to get your
products out there, um, in, in the
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:palm of your hand, in your pocket, in,
in a, in an avenue your life that ev
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:everyone is so engaged with already.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:And, and of course e-commerce
generally continues to grow, but
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:social commerce is growing, uh, year
on year and is set to reach, you know,
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:record highs as, as we would expect.
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:So I think that trend has
absolutely fueled that as well.
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:Martin Bysh: Yeah, I, I, I think so.
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:Um.
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:And it's very easy, as you say, it's
really easy, particularly in e-commerce
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:to set up a business now, but I guess
it's easy to set up a business, but
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:that creates challenges and I think
that's where your product comes in.
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:Ben Shipway: Yeah,
that's absolutely right.
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:I mean, um, I, I touched on earlier
the, the, you know, when we, when we
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:go out there and we really talk to
these people and understand their pain
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:points, which, you know, is really
key for us in designing a solution,
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:a product that will help and, and
have an impact on these users' lives.
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:It's always good to, we think we
know what these challenges are.
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:Of course, we need to be out there talking
to people and, and really when we're.
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:Interviewing, doing our market research.
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:We're out in the streets at the, at
the Christmas markets, at farmer's
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:markets, and, and talking to people not
only about their side hustles, but also
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:about their, their fledgling businesses,
um, including the, uh, the honey
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:business that Paul mentioned earlier.
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:What we're seeing is this, um,
anxiety to, or inability to grow
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:their business because they're
very tied to what they know.
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:You know, single systems I always
sell on, you know, eBay or, or
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:Amazon, and, and I know it and I'm
cautious about stepping outta that.
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:Um, or we see many people
struggling to, um, uh, essentially
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:juggle those online systems.
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:Um, they spend so much of their time on
average in our research, people spend
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:two or three hours in the evening, every,
every evening trying to stay up to date
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:with Amazon style shipping, next day
delivery expectations on small sellers,
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:that's obviously a big challenge.
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:Um, and so they're juggling multiple
systems, juggling multiple packages.
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:They're, they're fulfilling on
their kitchen table where they're
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:looping their friends and family.
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:They're, they're doing all sorts.
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:And, and it's such a, an ecosystem,
which is quite distributed.
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:Um, and that really is where
they're losing all this time.
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:Martin Bysh: Mm.
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:And so, so how do you solve
that problem for them?
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:Ben Shipway: what we do is, um,
we look to provide a single view
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:of all of their orders across
all of their sales platforms.
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:So whether they sell on one platform
or, or or 50, um, we bring all
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:those orders into the system.
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:They get a single simple view
within their, within their mobile.
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:It's a mobile app, mobile first product.
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:So they can, like you said, around
flexible working, stay on top of
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:what orders they have coming in.
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:The app automatically prioritizes those.
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:I mean, one of the, one of the key
things we learned from our research is
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:that people struggle to find the next
to most important thing to work on
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:across all of those different platforms.
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:And so having a single aggregated.
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:Prioritized view removes the
cognitive load from the user, enables
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:them to focus on what to do next.
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:Um, alongside that, we streamline
their activity into workflows to
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:enable them to be most efficient.
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:So they, they do all
their packing together.
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:They do all their shipping together.
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:They do all their, perhaps custom
made products together, which of
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:course is a big differentiator for
these sellers in this, in this space.
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:Um, and then we provide them really simple
access to all the couriers they need based
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:on their price or convenient location,
print straight from their mobile device.
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:Um, help them streamline through
that whole process, bring a bit of
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:professionalism that you see in.
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:In businesses that we all, we've all
worked in before, um, right into their
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:pocket and, and then give them a sim
single bill for all their couriers.
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:So if they're buying individual
labels from raw mail, from Evry,
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:from DHL, other, uh, couriers are
available, of course, um, they just,
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:they just pay one bill for that.
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:Um, so it's really about reducing that
systems load, the switching the context,
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:switching the cognitive load, streamlining
their activity, making the person most
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:efficient, um, and then providing them
access to all the convenient and, and
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:well, uh, priced couriers that they need.
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:But that is really what sets
Hussle apart in this space.
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:Martin Bysh: Um, what do you think
the market is for a product like this?
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:Is it, is it a sizable market that
should have been noticed before,
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:but that you've picked up on?
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:Paul Bennet: Yeah, we, we believe so.
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:I mean, in the uk, um, based
on those numbers I gave before,
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:about one in four adults and 15%
of those we're talking about 1.35
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:million people that are running
e-commerce side hustles in the uk.
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:And when you look at that on a global
scale, you know, we're, it's, it's 39
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:million people, so it's a, you know,
it's definitely a sizable market.
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:Um, and as far as we have seen, you
know, no one has picked up on that yet.
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:And we are the first to jump in into it.
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:Martin Bysh: And I think you said
that you've, you've done a sort
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:of soft launch to some beta users.
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:What, what has the feedback been?
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:Paul Bennet: It's been very, um, positive.
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:I mean, when you have feedback
at the early stage, you are.
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:As much learning about how
you can improve as, as well as
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:what is going very, very well.
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:And, and so already we're getting
feedback, um, very positively about the,
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:the time that people are set saving.
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:Um, you know, e equally people are,
you know, were telling us that,
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:you know, they needed more courier
choice, which we've now done.
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:Um, you know, that we needed
to be, of course, sharp on our
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:courier pricing, which we, which
we, we've now done as well.
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:So it's really, um, a very valuable
time for us to, to listen to people
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:who have the app in their hands
and are using it every, every day.
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:Um, so yeah, so we, I mean, the feedback
has been, has been, uh, positive.
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:I mean, what's very important for us is
obviously there's the functional things
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:that we're doing for people, but when
people turn around and tell us, because
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:of a time that you are saving me, I went
to the gym or I spent time with my family,
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:or I, I was able to sleep, sleep more.
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:These are the things that, you
know, obviously really matter to us
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:because it's something that we're
doing, you know, tangibly to help
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:people have, um, have a better life.
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:Martin Bysh: How much of the entrepreneur
entrepreneurial journey is the hustle
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:and therefore you can hang onto
them, is, is it, is it potentially
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:years of them running their business?
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:Ben Shipway: Yeah, I
think it absolutely is.
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:I think we recognize that the hustle, as
you put it, is, is a, is a long journey
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:that starts with, you know, ideation.
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:35% of people want to start a
side hustle through to what,
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:what products do I want to ship?
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:What products, you know,
where, where do I ship?
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:How do I post, um, how do I,
uh, sorry, where do I sell?
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:How do I ship?
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:Um, right through to how do I customize?
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:Because, 'cause of course, as I
said earlier, that's a, that's a
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:huge differentiator in this space.
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:Um, and there are very little, if
any solutions out there to support,
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:uh, customized product says outsource
fulfillment companies, for example,
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:really struggle with that because of
the personalized nature of every, every
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:different order that comes through.
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:And of course, you scale that up
big, it becomes, um, uh, untenable
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:from an operational perspective.
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:So, um, supporting those early
sellers through those early
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:days of, you know, time poor.
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:I, I hate the different systems, access
all the things we've talked about already.
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:Um, as essentially what we want to
do is give those people time back.
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:Now, Paul's already touched on
the fact that maybe they want to
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:spend that time with their family.
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:They want to go to the gym, but the vast
majority of the people we've spoke to
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:in this space really are limiting or
self-limiting their business by the amount
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:of time they have to spend on things
like marketing opening up new channels.
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:So in that early stage in the, the
sort of startup side hustle, if you
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:want to call them that, it really
is about enabling them to, to do the
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:things to help grow their business.
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:So time back, do more,
grow more, more business.
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:And of course there's a, there's a
multiplication effect here as well, which
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:is, you know, as, uh, you can continue to
do more in the same amount of time or in
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:less time because of, because of hustle.
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:And that obviously helps people grow.
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:Um.
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:We've definitely focused on that side
hustle startup space because that's
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:a very underserved market right
now, as we've already talked about.
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:We've absolutely identified that
and we're solving those pain
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:points in future, though the
question is, is a really good one.
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:Um, as these businesses grow, particularly
for more custom made product sets,
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:you know, we see a long life cycle
of, of partnership really with these
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:customized product set businesses
and hustle because we can support 'em
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:where other people are unable to, and
we'll continue to do that through new
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:functionality and multi-user modes.
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:And, uh, I've started talking
about roadmap stuff now.
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:You can't take the products
out of me, I'm afraid.
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:Um, but I think.
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:There's a vast
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:Ben: variety of
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:Ben Shipway: of reasons why people
would not want to move to an ax
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:actual fulfillment business or, or,
or away from hustle in, in some way.
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:I think, um, some of those
reasons might be, you know,
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:quality control over fulfillment.
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:Um, some of those reasons might
be some of the great, uh, product
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:features that we've got on the roadmap.
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:What we really see hustle in Future is a.
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:Personal productivity tool, orchestration
tool to help people run their businesses
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:from a central location, you know,
super simple in the palm of their hand.
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:Um, and whether that be in some cases
integrating with, uh, drop shippers or
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:print on demand services or even, you
know, partnerships with fulfillment
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:companies, that's absolutely fine.
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:I think the value in hustle is
beyond just the shipping, it's the
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:orchestration, and it's that, it's
that user value, the day-to-day impact,
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:Martin Bysh: and there's no
inherent limit, presumably on
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:the number of products that
they could push through Hustle.
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:Ben Shipway: Absolutely not.
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:No.
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:I mean, it's completely,
completely scalable as you imagine.
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:It's built, you know, using scalable
technology right from the air.
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:We've, we've spent a lot of time
and effort making this, uh, a
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:solid foundation for the future.
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:Um, and no, and, and really the
sky is the limit in terms of
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:course, we're adding new sales
platforms, new couriers all the time.
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:Um, Paul, Paul touched on that earlier.
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:Um, so there is no limit to the
number of orders, platforms.
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:Um, obviously right now we're just in
the UK 'cause that's our launch market.
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:But as we, as we broaden horizons into
Europe and the US and, and, and, uh,
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:Australia as well, the, the plan is
to continue to grow the ecosystem,
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:um, and provide all the choice and
scale that a user user could need.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:Paul Bennet: I would add a couple
of things to what Ben has said.
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:What's been interesting for us is that
we've identified a knowledge gap when we
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:were out speaking to a lot of people in
the physical markets, people that were
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:selling at Christmas markets and so on.
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:Um, many of them really wanted
to sell more online, but they
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:didn't know how to do it.
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:And in fact, we've spent, um, uh,
some time with, with the clients
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:we have helping them get set up
and helping them to kind of build.
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:So there's definitely something
there that we can do earlier in
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:the process because there seems to
be a lot of people that want to do
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:more, but, but find it difficult.
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:And similarly, I think, you know, people
do get stuck on one platform and they say,
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:okay, I, I understand how e eBay works
and I'd love to do more, but I'm very
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:comfortable, as you mentioned earlier.
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:Um, so you know, we are really
hoping that hustle really helps
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:to kind of break that barrier.
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:'cause if you think I can get
all my orders through on my
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:phone, no matter if I'm on.
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:Two or five, uh, sales, sales
channels, um, then that's something
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:that obviously can just take away
that fear of, of pushing further.
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:I,
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:Martin Bysh: I can really see that.
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:I mean, I think there's something
like a hundred plus channels across
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:Europe and they're not all gonna be
appropriate for every product, but
336
:the chances are that for any given
product, a few of them are appropriate.
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:And then you've gotta deal with
different systems, different
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:user interfaces, five things.
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:You have to have accounts,
five user interfaces.
340
:You have to understand how to navigate,
how to upload product change images,
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:do all those kinds of things, go in
to check to see if there are orders,
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:then go into the next one to check
to see if there are orders and so on.
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:So I can imagine that the, the more
channels you have, the more valuable,
344
:uh, uh, and in fact, perhaps it then
becomes impossible to part with hus.
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:Is it solving those
those problems for you?
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:Ben Shipway: I think
that's absolutely right.
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:And to your point, uh, you, you, you
just said that all the, all the different
348
:sales platforms, all different courier
websites are all slightly different.
349
:They have slightly different data inputs,
they have slightly different layouts.
350
:You know, data's set up and shown
in a slightly different way.
351
:Um.
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:And so, you know, of course it's
natural for those products to do
353
:that because they are trying to
differentiate themselves from each
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:other, and that makes complete sense.
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:What hustle's able to do is, is
aggregate and obfuscate those ch
356
:those differences and those changes.
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:In a, in a simple view with a common data
set across all those platforms, um, in
358
:a, in a common data set across couriers,
weight breaks, limits, uh, uh, uh, parcel
359
:sizes, uh, and, and, and shipping routes.
360
:And provide a really simple cut through
path that that doesn't mean that you
361
:have to have a PhD to operate some
of these systems, which sometimes
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:it does feel like you do need.
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:Yeah.
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:Martin Bysh: How are you
selling this product?
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:So how do I buy it?
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:How is the purchasing meter in some way?
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:Is it a subscription?
368
:Is it, is it a fee on top of, uh,
some, some element of the product?
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:How does that work?
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:Um, and how does that then
value the market for you?
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:Paul Bennet: So let's, let's start
with, um, how we, how we price that.
372
:So when we discussed that at the
beginning, it was very important
373
:for us that we help people to grow
and that we help people get started.
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:So we wanted to make this as frictionless
as possible for people to start using it.
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:So the app is free to use.
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:You can down download it and,
you know, you'll to connect your
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:first couple of sales channels.
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:There's no, there's no cost there.
379
:Um, there's only a subscription cost that
kicks in once you add channels three,
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:four, and five and, and, and beyond.
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:Um, so, you know, to download
it and start using it, um, on
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:your first and second channels,
there's, there's no cost to that.
383
:You're simply paying for your,
for your ship shipping fee.
384
:So you're getting all of the
aggregation, all of the workflow,
385
:um, you know, at, at no cost.
386
:Martin Bysh: I, I love that.
387
:I'm, I'm a huge fan of freemium.
388
:I think if you can give something
away that people really want, that
389
:they can derive value from them.
390
:You're not gonna, you're
not gonna lose them.
391
:That's the key of course,
because, because it's free.
392
:Why would they leave as long as they're
getting value from that particular thing.
393
:Um, and then there's the
opportunity to scale up purchasing.
394
:Uh, I mean, I've run, uh, um, freemium
businesses before I launched, uh, the UK's
395
:first freemium dating site 15 years ago.
396
:And it exploded because we were giving
away what other people were charging for
397
:and then we could charge for other things.
398
:So there was definitely money to be made,
but to get that user base in a challenging
399
:market was so much easier when we were
giving something away to begin with.
400
:Something else I love about freemium.
401
:Is the word of mouth premium
that you get on freemium.
402
:I remember, um, when
we launched smooch.com,
403
:which was the freemium dating
site 15 years ago, typically
404
:it costs something like.
405
:30 to 45 pounds to acquire a paying
member to a paid dating site.
406
:One of the reasons people didn't think
you could do freemium was because you
407
:would never be able to monetize people
at the same level as a paid site.
408
:So if you pay 45 pounds to get them in
the door, you'll never get the money back.
409
:By the time we were done, by
the time we sold smooch, cost
410
:of acquisition was 70 pence.
411
:The blended cost of acquisition and
that, that was partly a big, big part
412
:of that was word of mouth premium.
413
:It's free when somebody tells somebody
else about your product, so that's free.
414
:So that immediately has a massive impact
on the, the blended cost of acquisition.
415
:But the other thing, it has really
significant implications for SEO
416
:and for all of those things that
relate to SEO that utilize similar
417
:algorithms, like pay per click,
because you know, people love the site.
418
:They come to it frequently
because it's free.
419
:Um, they tell their friends,
they come to it as well.
420
:All of that tells Google this is a great
site and that it's something that should
421
:be sitting quite high in the SEO rankings.
422
:They kind of back links that you get.
423
:Amplified.
424
:You know, if you've got a paid business,
you've gotta work to get those backlinks
425
:because, you know, someone wants to get
paid for giving you the backlink, or at
426
:least they know that you are getting paid.
427
:And that might make
them reluctant to do so.
428
:To be able to tell someone, this
is free, this could benefit you, is
429
:something that people want to do and
they want to do it on their websites.
430
:They want to do it in newspaper articles
about how to get rich quick or whatever.
431
:So you're guaranteed, uh, more backlinks
because it's a freemium play as well.
432
:And that too reduces the
blended cost of acquisition.
433
:So I think that's a, that's
a, a great way to go.
434
:I really like that
435
:Ben Shipway: mm.
436
:Martin Bysh: Um, but what does that mean
for you in terms of value of the market?
437
:Ben Shipway: Based on our current pricing
model, the revenue opportunity for
438
:hustle is some, somewhere in the region
of 265 million in the UK alone, but
439
:in excess of 7 billion, uh, globally.
440
:Martin Bysh: so how are you
currently acquiring customers?
441
:Paul Bennet: So there's
a couple of main ways.
442
:One, as you said, is people.
443
:Searching for help.
444
:Um, it's about being very, uh,
relevant and present and visible, um,
445
:in the right, in the right searches
and having the relevant content.
446
:It's gonna push our, our
website, uh, to the top.
447
:But, um, in recent months,
we've also started working with
448
:influencers and, and partners.
449
:Um, and this is proving to be a
very successful route for us because
450
:many of these influencers, um, have
become influential because they
451
:started a side hustle a while ago
and have become very good at it.
452
:Um, and their first reaction to us when
we present hustle to them is that, I
453
:wish I'd had this when I, when I started.
454
:And they're very naturally, very
happy to, uh, you know, talk about
455
:our product to their audience.
456
:And of course, they have a lot
of, um, as the, the word sounds
457
:a lot of influence in sway.
458
:Over their, over their community.
459
:And so we are finding, you know, just
in the last few weeks, um, a lot more
460
:signups coming through from people
that are coming from, from these,
461
:uh, from these social media, um, uh,
partners that we're now working with.
462
:Ben Shipway: this this trusted
source as a, as a, um, as a source
463
:of recommendation is absolutely key.
464
:I mean, you touched a bit on
it, that free word of mouth.
465
:I mean, um, I, when we were out talking
to market store holders, I in particular,
466
:you know, spoke to a whole load of people.
467
:Um, and I got into a conversation
with this one particular lady
468
:who was selling jewelry and she
said, oh, this looks really good.
469
:And I showed her the app and said,
you know, um, what do you think?
470
:And she said, well, um, will I be able
to see who else is on the platform?
471
:And me, of course, from the technology
side, was I thinking security.
472
:And I'm like, no, don't worry.
473
:It's absolutely secure, best in class.
474
:And you know, no one will
know, no one will be able to
475
:get access to your, your data.
476
:We don't even see your
store login information.
477
:You know, it is all, all reassuring talk.
478
:And she said, oh no.
479
:'cause if I knew that so and so.
480
:Recommended it, then I would absolutely
be, uh, more, more inclined to use it.
481
:So I think we, we hooked onto that sort
of, um, trusted recommendation route
482
:as being really key for, in particular
a certain segment of these users.
483
:Martin Bysh: That, that
makes a lot of sense.
484
:And I assume that the
influencers themselves are.
485
:Potentially clients, presumably with
the merchandise they're selling.
486
:Paul Bennet: Yeah, uh, absolutely.
487
:So, yeah, so some of them are
loving it so much they, they've,
488
:they've all signed up and started u
using it, which is, which is great.
489
:And that means it's very authentic.
490
:I mean, when they're doing a particular,
um, talk about hostile on their, on
491
:their, uh, podcast, they're, they're
very genuine about how they talk
492
:about it and, and how it, you know,
how it is useful for them and how it
493
:would've been even more useful for
them when they were first starting out.
494
:Martin Bysh: It's about having
the right influences, isn't it?
495
:So as a business, I'm heavily involved
with currently, and we, our main
496
:route to market is via influencers.
497
:And the difference, um, in
reception, depending on the
498
:influencer, is absolutely massive.
499
:And it isn't about the market,
like the, the, it isn't
500
:about the size of the market.
501
:It isn't about the number of people
they're having a conversation with.
502
:It's about the quality of conversation.
503
:So we found, particularly if we go through
agencies, it's often not very good.
504
:So the agency mediates the
relationship, so they have the
505
:conversation with the influencer.
506
:Often with lots of influencers,
we don't have that conversation.
507
:We are not getting them excited.
508
:We're not getting them on board.
509
:No one is as excited about
the product as we are.
510
:So we are the people you
really need to talk to.
511
:If you know, if you're gonna walk
away thinking, this is exciting,
512
:I want to talk about this.
513
:So instead.
514
:In that setting, the influencer
tends to go away, away in
515
:just case sort of pitches it.
516
:He reads it from a piece of paper.
517
:He's not very engaged.
518
:Like, you know, we, we can tell from what
happened subsequently purchasing behaviors
519
:that the, his audience isn't very engaged.
520
:And then there'll be others, often smaller
channels that are phenomenally engaged
521
:and they really reach out and speak
very persuasively to their audience.
522
:And the pickup is huge and so much less
expensive than the larger channels that
523
:we've tested and probably won't use again.
524
:You know, to be completely
frank, you find the right people.
525
:It's an incredibly inexpensive way
to take your product to market as
526
:long as you've got the right people.
527
:So I think that definitely
makes a lot of sense.
528
:And the people you are speaking to,
what are they typically talking about?
529
:Are they, are they talking to people
about starting small businesses
530
:or are they sort of hobbyists?
531
:Paul Bennet: Yeah, it can be all sorts.
532
:So it can be somebody that's
become actually expert on
533
:one particular sales channel.
534
:But has followers that
are on multiple ones.
535
:Um, we've also got ones by where, you
know, it's, it's a community of makers
536
:and people that are making things and
are actually going to places like,
537
:uh, big shopping centers like West
Westfield and sharing spaces together.
538
:Um, and obviously taking it in turns
to, to use that, that popup space.
539
:Um, so we're seeing all, all sorts and,
you know, but I think the point is, is,
540
:you know, finding the right partner is
very important because some of them just
541
:are, you know, looking for the check
and to say, yes, I'll, I'll promote it.
542
:It's, this is the amount of money and
we've come across other ones who are.
543
:So committed to it that they are
wanting to send extra emails out
544
:and, you know, how's it going?
545
:And, you know, if I send an extra
message out and, you know, if I post on
546
:Facebook, can you do a follow up post?
547
:And so, you know, you do get
ones that they, they you feel
548
:their com their commitment to it.
549
:So it's important to find the right ones.
550
:And we've found that actually
often by working with one, you're
551
:getting recommended to another.
552
:So it, it's kind of a flow
that you get in, in, into,
553
:Martin Bysh: um, and, and
how do you incentivize them?
554
:So, so we found that was
also a kind of a key piece.
555
:If we, if we incentivize them, you know,
using long-term sales, um, then that,
556
:that would drive them the right ones, that
would drive the right ones to, to do more.
557
:Mm-hmm.
558
:Whereas if it was simply, you
know, there's, here's a check, go
559
:and speak about it for 20 minutes.
560
:That would never bring
out the best in people.
561
:Are you incentivizing them on sales?
562
:Paul Bennet: Yeah, so it's a mix at
the moment because we're trying both,
563
:we have tried the flat fee approach to
see, okay, here's a fee and you know,
564
:this is what we get during the month.
565
:For that, for that and with others.
566
:We're trying the affiliate approach
by where they obviously are
567
:incentivized to push as many people
through to sign a as possible.
568
:So I think, you know, it's probably too
early to say which one is, is best, but
569
:I think, um, you know, certainly, um,
with the affiliate route, what we will
570
:do is we will obviously offer them an
incentive for driving people through, but
571
:we'll also offer the people that they send
some free shipping as well, so they've
572
:got something that they can sell on as
well, so that, that seems to work well.
573
:Martin Bysh: As I mentioned earlier in
the podcast, we obviously worked together.
574
:You were, I think,
probably 50% of my C-suite.
575
:Um, when we were running a business,
we, we built rapidly up to doing the
576
:region of 50 million pounds a year.
577
:I think you guys were there
for about the last half of that
578
:process before you decided to go
off and set up your own business.
579
:But obviously you both
had amazing careers.
580
:Um, prior to that, um, it'd be
great for you maybe to talk a bit
581
:about your backgrounds, right?
582
:Paul Bennet: Go for it.
583
:Thanks.
584
:Um, so yeah, I mean, me, I mean,
I've got a marketing back background.
585
:I'm 30 plus years, um, you know,
working across global brands.
586
:Uh, I spent the majority of
my career working at a global
587
:insurance brand called a axa.
588
:Um, and, uh, held, um, various,
uh, senior marketing positions
589
:there, um, including global brand
director, um, uh, based in, in Paris.
590
:Um, and was able, uh, I guess, you
know, during that period of my career
591
:to really understand what it takes
to, um, you know, kind of build
592
:a global brand in the right way.
593
:Um, so I inherited a brand which was
effectively, uh, 64, very separate, uh,
594
:global markets, and was able to kind
of build a global master brand around
595
:it and double the value of that brand
to $13 billion according to into brand.
596
:Um, so something that, uh.
597
:I was very proud to achieve with
my, with my team, and we did some,
598
:a number of things there in order
to make that brand less corporate
599
:and, and more consumer friendly.
600
:Um, one of the things that we did
was to create global partnership
601
:with the likes of Liverpool Football
Club, which was a, it's been a
602
:very successful, uh, partnership,
which is still going, uh, today.
603
:Um, so that was a, I think a very
good choice that we made at the time,
604
:given the success that they've had,
um, over the, over the past year.
605
:So, so I was really, uh, learning how to,
and, and, and, and learning how to kind
606
:of the, the strategy of a, of a global
brand and how, how, how to build it Then.
607
:In then coming to working with
you Martin in Huboo that gave me
608
:another perspective, which was very
much around how to scale a brand.
609
:And so the brand of course was
already existing, but uh, with
610
:working with the team, we were
obviously working on Halford.
611
:Martin Bysh: I think
we, we just interrupt.
612
:We, we had a logo.
613
:I'm not sure we really had a brand, so I
think we, we needed some help with that.
614
:Paul Bennet: Oh, I think, I
think, I mean, your, your brand
615
:is built by touch points, right?
616
:So I think you already had something
which people thought something of,
617
:and as you were men mentioning before.
618
:You know, you were aimed at kind of
smaller sellers at the, at the beginning.
619
:So I think there was that, there was
that perception, um, of the brand.
620
:And one of the things that we were doing
together was how could we make it more
621
:ready and, um, and acceptable to larger,
uh, um, uh, business size co customers.
622
:So, so, um, so I think that gave
me a really good, uh, experience
623
:in how to kind of scale a brand.
624
:And, um, and I think those two
journeys, you know, leading me to
625
:Hustle has now obviously given me
the, the final opportunity, which
626
:is, you know, how to build a brand
from a, from a blank piece of paper.
627
:So it's been an amazing backwards
journey for me in a, in a way.
628
:Um, um, but I think I've taken all
of my experiences from, um, what we
629
:did at Huboo but also Axa to, you
know, to, to now to be able to think
630
:about how to scale, hustle, um,
you know, around, around the world.
631
:Martin Bysh: So from, from
global brand to startup.
632
:Exactly.
633
:Um, and it was a very
entrepreneurial experience.
634
:I'm back again, hopefully.
635
:Yeah.
636
:Ab I know, know what you'll, we build
it into international brand, of course.
637
:Absolutely.
638
:Um, and it was a very entrepreneurial
experience, uh, Huboo So I think
639
:that's, that's a great basis, um,
for running your own business.
640
:FF for both of you.
641
:I mean, I, I, I, I know you've got
experience in some startups, I think
642
:before, uh, Ben, or at least, uh,
not quite the sort of global beer
643
:moths that a Axel was, but it, but
it's, it is a great foundation.
644
:It was a very scrappy business when you
guys joined us, and so I think probably
645
:a good education for doing something
like this be be good, I think for you
646
:to, for you to talk to the folks about,
about your background a bit, Ben.
647
:Ben Shipway: Yeah.
648
:How do I follow that?
649
:Hey, well great, great career so far.
650
:So, um, my, my background is
product and technology, so
651
:software, uh, development delivery.
652
:Um, a long stint in financial
services, um, product management.
653
:Uh, a long time ago I was actually a
developer, although I would absolutely
654
:not, uh, recommend you to get me to
do any development today, but ended
655
:up there after a sort of 14, 15
years or so, um, heading up there,
656
:software, um, outsourced and source.
657
:And that was,
658
:Martin Bysh: that was the don't
thing you said, was that just eat?
659
:Ben Shipway: Uh, no, so this was
pre just eat so financial services.
660
:Right.
661
:Um, uh, since then I went off and,
and, uh, did some outsource work for,
662
:for some big footsie hundreds in the
insurance space and actually for, um,
663
:I dunno if I can say, but raw mail.
664
:We, we did a little of work into
raw mail and actually started.
665
:What, what is now the raw mail app.
666
:So that was started under, under
my, uh, guidance many, many years
667
:ago, which, uh, was probably my
first for into logistics world.
668
:Um, you touched on the justi.
669
:I, I was lucky enough to join Justi.
670
:Very, very technology led organization,
fantastic business to work for.
671
:Uh, I worked there for nearly
five years, uh, four years or so.
672
:Um, headed up their FinTech space.
673
:So we did some great, you know, talking
large volume payment, uh, transaction,
674
:uh, technology, implemented machine
learning, fraud detection tools,
675
:and, and some really, like I say,
some, some cool tech led stuff there.
676
:Um, led one of the work streams to merger,
uh, just eat in the UK and takeaway.com.
677
:So two, two sort of massive ftse hundred
businesses came together, um, and led
678
:led part of that on the technology side,
which was really, really interesting.
679
:Um, and then became their
platform, uh, director.
680
:Uh, so did that for a few years
and, and really that, that's what
681
:sort of brought me to you, Martin
at Huboo which is all of that.
682
:Technology led, um, product led, uh,
scale up to a more mature sort of
683
:global organization was, was really the
experience that I came to Huboo with.
684
:And, uh, and Paul's talked already
about the, the kind of brand and
685
:the marketing approach there.
686
:But, um, my role there was to,
to take the, the sort of startup
687
:technology platform and, and scale
the technology team become more of a
688
:technology brand, which was all always
the aspiration for us, of course.
689
:And, and leverage technology more
for customers and, and to see how we
690
:could improve our customer's lives
more through, through software.
691
:So, um, yeah, so I, I've, I've had a real
mix really sort of some really sort of,
692
:um, sort of quite, quite rigid financial
services backgrounds into logistics
693
:marketplace, e-commerce, large scale, but.
694
:I'd say Justi is very entrepreneurial
in, in terms of running sort
695
:of little companies within it.
696
:So I led that FinTech team and
that was like a little startup,
697
:really, within the business.
698
:So, so I feel like I've had a, a, a
great depth of different experience and
699
:different domains and different size
companies, but I think the key thread
700
:for me through all of this is how do
you use technology and software to,
701
:for user impact and for user value?
702
:And I, and I have a personal need to just
fix systems that aren't working properly.
703
:And so I think this kind of, this leads
us lovely into the, the opportunity to
704
:really, it's a bit cliche, but we were
talking about this only this morning.
705
:How, um, we, we sat in a restaurant
one evening and, and sketched the
706
:idea for hustle on the, on a napkin.
707
:I mean, I know you see it in
the movies, but it happens.
708
:Um, and, and so to take.
709
:A software product, which is obviously
what I love to do, from ideation
710
:through to creation to end user's hands.
711
:Having the kind of great feedback
we're getting is, is fantastic.
712
:And I guess the next step now is
to, to, to scale and get it in as
713
:many people's hands as possible.
714
:Martin Bysh: I, I can't think
of a better segue really into
715
:talking about how this came about.
716
:I think at some point, maybe after
this we'll talk a bit about investment.
717
:Um, you know, people, people
love to hear investment stories.
718
:They love to understand how,
you know, how one raises money.
719
:Obviously it's always challenging to
understand how we overcome some of those
720
:challenges, I think is really useful for,
um, people watching podcasts like this.
721
:The other thing that is always
really exciting, I think is the
722
:story, the story of the startup.
723
:Certainly for me it is.
724
:I mean I've, I've started
lots of businesses.
725
:There's no period in the life of a
business that is as much fun as that
726
:first cut year or two when you're
kind of getting the idea together.
727
:You don't know if anybody even wants
the thing you're building, and then
728
:eventually you launch it and it's
terrifying and people begin to use
729
:it and it's thrilling and so on.
730
:And eventually of course, these
things grow and they do become more,
731
:more structured and more corporate.
732
:And depending on your makeup,
um, that can be less fun.
733
:Certainly was for me.
734
:You guys come from a background.
735
:Well, well, I think you'll
enjoy that, that stage as well.
736
:But it's, it's, it is those two
things that I think are often the
737
:most thrilling, the, the funding
story in the startup story.
738
:So, so take us back to that napkin
and, talk us through what's kind of
739
:happened between, between then and now.
740
:Paul Bennet: Well, I think at that stage
we had seen, you know, the insights, um,
741
:you know, that there was a lot of people
searching for help and that there were,
742
:um, you know, people that were far too
small for third party out outsourcing
743
:that were requiring help with their admin.
744
:And that was really the starting point.
745
:So I think being quite structured,
people, we said, you know, that's
746
:not something we just take as
red, let's go and research it.
747
:So the first thing that we did was
to, um, you know, go and speak.
748
:You know, spend an hour or two with.
749
:These small e-commerce sellers and
really get an understanding of like
750
:what they do, how they do it, and where
their potential friction points were.
751
:And um, and this, I think, gave us enough
of an idea to start the napkin sketch.
752
:I think at that point we said,
okay, there's something here.
753
:If we can fix these friction
points, there seems to be something.
754
:And so that was the first
phase that we went through.
755
:Um, and again, because we're quite
structured people, we said, okay,
756
:that's fine, but now we need to go and,
you know, really kind of test this.
757
:So we, in fact, our, the first investment
that we made together was to pay for
758
:some research so we could get in front of
around 250 of these sellers to get some
759
:real nu numbers and again, able to dive
into those friction points to understand.
760
:And through that, we understood
that, you know, actually 97% of
761
:these small e-commerce sellers
had a major problem of some kind.
762
:With orders or with couriers or, you
know, with the complexity of things.
763
:Um, but also during that research
we were able able to, you know, take
764
:our napkin and then kind of build
that out into something that was
765
:more reasonable and understandable.
766
:Martin Bysh: Did you
still have the napkin?
767
:Do you know what?
768
:Ben Shipway: I, I was just gonna say I
don't, I don't think we do have that.
769
:Yeah.
770
:I'm afraid framed
771
:Paul Bennet: somewhere.
772
:If we can find it, that'd be good,
773
:Ben Shipway: wouldn't it?
774
:Paul Bennet: Um, and, and, and so we were
able to say, okay, given, you know, you're
775
:facing these problems if you, you know,
if there was a platform or a solution that
776
:was able to do this, this, and this, and,
you know, how relevant would these things?
777
:And that was really our kind
of approval gate, wasn't it?
778
:Mm-hmm.
779
:Coming outta that research.
780
:We were, I think we were quite
comfortable to say, if that doesn't
781
:come back positively, then that's
been a good few months of fun work
782
:and we'll kinda shake hands and,
you know, go do some something else.
783
:But I mean, the, the feedback
was, um, you know, so positive.
784
:I mean, 78% of them being.
785
:You know, you know, very or highly
likely, you know, to, you know, to
786
:want to pay for an app, that that
helps em with the, with those problems.
787
:That was enough for us to
say, right, let's, let's go
788
:to the ne to the next step.
789
:So that's kind of how, how things started.
790
:Ben Shipway: Yeah.
791
:And I think, um, you know, we, we've
obviously worked together before at Huboo
792
:as you mentioned, Martin, and, and, uh,
uh, we, we enjoyed working together.
793
:I think we're, we're both, uh,
very similar approach to things.
794
:Um, and so I think it was only natural
that when we moved, uh, into this space,
795
:we sort of sought each other out and
said, you know, I, I rate you Paul.
796
:And I said, and he.
797
:And you, Ben and, uh, and, and we decided
to, to get going on this new idea.
798
:Um, yeah, I I don't think, you know,
we went through those approval gates
799
:and I think that's absolutely right.
800
:I don't think at any level either of us
thought this wasn't a thing before that.
801
:Mm-hmm.
802
:And I'd say I, I think we, we really
knew very early on that we had an, I
803
:like this, uh, seed of this great idea.
804
:And I think that was more about
how we bring that to life rather
805
:than is it actually a thing?
806
:Because I think we, we really knew
that deep down at that stage already.
807
:Mm-hmm.
808
:Martin Bysh: And so you are to a
point where you had an idea, um, you
809
:put it on paper, you shared it with
some people that you hoped had the
810
:problem that you'd identified they
did, and they loved the idea that you
811
:were gonna create a solution for it.
812
:How did you get from there to a product?
813
:Ben Shipway: Well, I mean, lots
of hard work and lots of late
814
:nights, lots of conversations.
815
:Mm-hmm.
816
:Um, I mean, for me it's quite, it's quite
natural to approach these things in, in
817
:quite an, a logical tech, technically
led way because of my background.
818
:And I think, you know, that's, that's
just as a, as an aside, I think why
819
:Paul and I work really well together
for this business, this, this product
820
:and this space is, is technology
and getting it into users hands and
821
:understanding users and, and, and
from the marketing side of things.
822
:So I think we've, we've sort of
dovetailed really well and I think
823
:it works really well for Hustle.
824
:Um, we started.
825
:Once I think we had the idea of the
shape of what this would look like.
826
:We did some, some really basic
prototyping just, just between us.
827
:Um, and we knew that because the key
selling point here was about usability.
828
:It needs to be simple, it needs
to feel like it's, you know, we're
829
:reducing all that cognitive load.
830
:So it really needs to feel
like a breath of fresh air.
831
:It needs to be one of those apps that
people pick up their phone they want
832
:to click on and, and access, you know,
we've all got those on our phones.
833
:Um, and so we spent a lot of time doing
two things, understanding the technology
834
:and how this would work in practice.
835
:You know, will, will it
actually hang together?
836
:And, you know, the
answer of course was yes.
837
:And secondly, what would this look like?
838
:Like how do we achieve that simplicity?
839
:Because you open the app
today and it, and it.
840
:Belies the complexity that sits underneath
it, courier integrations, e-commerce,
841
:channel integrations, and so on and so on.
842
:Martin Bysh: So, and you can, you
can see both of you for, for those
843
:who know, you can see both of you in
the app, that it's, it's very user
844
:friendly, but it's also very beautiful.
845
:Yeah, the, the, you know, there's the,
there's the marketing element drawing me
846
:in because it's, it's very professional,
very attractive, very cool looking.
847
:And then when you get into the app,
it's actually something you feel like,
848
:you know, your way around and you can
use Well, it's great that that comes
849
:across because that's absolutely, you
know, I was quite jealous of that.
850
:You have that kind of video that
shows when you, even before you
851
:join the app, and I, I hadn't seen
that before and I still haven't seen
852
:that since, I mean, since I can't
believe you're the only people in
853
:the world ever to have done that.
854
:But, but I haven't come across it.
855
:And it really allows you, because
obviously there are two things.
856
:If it's, if it's the kind of app you
have to join, getting people to download
857
:it is just the first problem you have.
858
:That's a challenging enough problem,
then you've got to get them to join
859
:up to go through a signup process.
860
:And that's another challenging problem.
861
:Sometimes it can be hard,
harder to do that than it is
862
:to get people in to begin with.
863
:And that that video, I just thought was
a fantastic way of telling people what
864
:it is they were gonna get when they got
inside the app without inviting them
865
:to make a decision about whether or
not to learn that it was just in front
866
:of them and attractive and persuasive.
867
:And then you get in, and as I
say, it's, it's straightforward.
868
:You understand what it does
for you and how to utilize it.
869
:So I, I could see the presence
of both of you in there.
870
:Paul Bennet: Yeah.
871
:And I think there was another important
step that we made quite early, which was
872
:to actually do a lot of thinking about
the brand even before the product was.
873
:Alive and out out there.
874
:We, we thought about the brand
a lot and, um, we had various,
875
:obviously iterations of that.
876
:I think the first iteration, uh, the
first brand name we had was Baton
877
:because we thought that could be
quite interesting passing things on,
878
:and this seems to something there.
879
:Then we got, we got bored with that.
880
:Then we went down to, we thought, oh,
how about using something in the flow?
881
:So I think we had float and then someone
said, oh no, maybe that's flowed.
882
:So that went out.
883
:Um, and then actually we, having
thought more deeply about it, we
884
:said, actually, let's make this very
audience centric, because I think
885
:that's really gonna connect with people.
886
:So that's really where
Hustle came, came from.
887
:And, and so we started to build
around that and it was very
888
:important for us from, from the
very beginning to make this.
889
:As professional as we could.
890
:I mean, you know, it was really about,
you know, let's, let's, even though we
891
:are, um, small and start starting out,
let, let's people have the experience of
892
:this as being a very professional one.
893
:And that was something that we did
and invested in very, very early.
894
:Martin Bysh: You, you'd never guessed that
it was a two man team putting together.
895
:It really does tick the boxes.
896
:Ben Shipway: Yeah, we, we really have
invested a lot of time, effort and, uh,
897
:uh, and, and money of course in, in terms
of getting that built right, creating
898
:some solid foundations, uh, for the future
and for scales as we touched on earlier.
899
:So I think that probably led us
into the, the, the, the build, the,
900
:the early sort of breaking ground
I, I guess, of, of hustle and the
901
:platform as to, to what it is now.
902
:Um, and that was when we started on
our, um, you know, pre-seed round.
903
:Um, we, we obviously bootstrapped
to a certain point and, and needed,
904
:needed more to go to go further.
905
:Um, and so that, that.
906
:It started us really opening the door
to, um, angel investor conversations.
907
:Um, you know, I was starting with our own
networks, family, friends, um, and beyond.
908
:Um,
909
:Martin Bysh: and so had you, had you,
um, built something before, um, before
910
:going on to raise or, or did you design
the whole thing, prepare yourself for a
911
:raise, take that design along to angels
and so on, and raise some funds like that?
912
:Ben Shipway: Um, no, we'd absolutely built
something by the time we went to raise.
913
:Um, and we set out on the journey
very, very much self-funding,
914
:uh, bootstrapping it.
915
:Like I said, I think we probably
got about halfway through
916
:the build, um, before we saw.
917
:The, actually, we really
wanted to do this justice.
918
:It felt, felt like there were
some really key things in, in the
919
:build that weren't there yet that
we really needed to get in there.
920
:And, and I guess that's, that's
great because you, you've said that
921
:the result of that has obviously
come through, which is amazing.
922
:Um, and so I think we, we realized
then that actually there was more
923
:we needed to do to get the, the MVP
product to where it needed to be.
924
:And so that's when we started
the conversation, I'd say
925
:about 50% of the way through.
926
:Martin Bysh: And so was it a
family and friends raise then
927
:Followed by an angel raise.
928
:And, and how did you go
about that, that angel raise?
929
:Paul Bennet: So, yeah, so it
was, it was, yeah, it was, it
930
:was friends and family first.
931
:That was obviously a way to
raise money quite quickly.
932
:Um, but then in, in, in
parallel, we started to have, uh,
933
:conversations and, and basically
get out there through our network.
934
:And that was really how we did it.
935
:I mean, because we have, um, worked
many years, uh, across many businesses.
936
:That's one of the, you know, things
that we do have in our favor is that
937
:we have, you know, um, a few, uh,
thousand people on LinkedIn that
938
:we can go and speak to and, and get
introduced to other, other people.
939
:So we started like that.
940
:Um, but even though we've had long
careers, this was the first time actually
941
:that we, we both had, had, you know, had
the opportunity to raise, raise money.
942
:So we also.
943
:Had to learn a lot as well.
944
:Um, you know, it's obviously Martin,
you've done that multiple times and you
945
:obviously, you know, that's obviously
second nature to you now, but, you know,
946
:going back to your first time, I mean,
there's, it's a whole different world and,
947
:and, uh, you know, I remember the first
ever pitch we did, um, which wasn't just
948
:a one person, in fact, it was to about,
uh, six or seven investors around a table.
949
:Ben Shipway: Table.
950
:We sort of found ourselves all
of a sudden through someone who'd
951
:known someone who, something it got
us, got us in front of this team.
952
:Yeah.
953
:And I think, I didn't think we
really knew what it was gonna be.
954
:Yeah.
955
:Not fully anyway.
956
:And we found ourselves in this
pitch, so, so I mean, and we obvious
957
:Paul Bennet: trying to to be professional.
958
:We prepared everything.
959
:We did the deck, we, you know,
we were rehearsing everything.
960
:And so I think our presentation went well.
961
:But of course then you get onto
questions and you know, the first
962
:question comes, which they start
talking about this thing called.
963
:Pre money and post money.
964
:And we were looking at each
other saying, I'm not sure what
965
:they're talking about there.
966
:So, uh, we had to sort of say
like, you know, we, we are
967
:not really familiar with that.
968
:Which of course is a very basic term
and it sounds, you know, obviously quite
969
:silly to say it now, but that was really,
I think, a signal for us to say, we need
970
:to, you know, kind of take a step back
and learn about this, this stuff because
971
:it's gonna be very important for us.
972
:So, so that was really our, kind
of our baptism of fire really.
973
:Martin Bysh: there there is a language
around the investment that you have
974
:to acquire in the early days and
we all sit there pretending we know
975
:what they're saying when we don't.
976
:Um, but yeah, eventually you realize
that actually it's all quite trivial.
977
:There's nothing very clever about it.
978
:And quite often I think these terms
are intended to disguise the fact that
979
:nothing particularly clever is going on.
980
:Mm-hmm.
981
:But so you, you found yourself in
this meeting, was it, this was a, was
982
:it a sort of an angel network or It
was a single fund and it was various
983
:people from that particular fund?
984
:Paul Bennet: Yeah, it, it was, it was, it
was a fund, uh, where angel investors come
985
:together and they take decision to say,
we will invest in this, in this company.
986
:So, you know, they, they're obviously
investing in other places, but Bond, um,
987
:particular funds, they come together.
988
:So, yeah, we were invited into this
meeting to kind of make our pitch.
989
:Um, but we came up against
very experienced investors,
990
:so their, their questions were
for us quite tough at the time.
991
:And of course that was actually quite
good to go, go through because we,
992
:you know, made sure that we got the
rigor right for the, for the followers.
993
:But then of course, you
get to meet all sorts of.
994
:Different investors that, you
know, say yes or no and you're not
995
:actually, you know, there's no logic
to why they're saying yes or or no.
996
:And I mean, we had this one, um,
investor that we pitched to and you
997
:said, I think this idea is brilliant,
but I only ever write the first
998
:check, so, you know, you've already
had another check, so I'm out.
999
:So thing, things like this, which
was quite, quite strange for us.
:
00:52:00,180 --> 00:52:00,290
Mm-hmm.
:
00:52:01,290 --> 00:52:02,010
Ben Shipway: I remember it well.
:
00:52:02,665 --> 00:52:07,645
I, I just to add to that, I'd say many
of the better pitches and the more
:
00:52:07,645 --> 00:52:12,655
successful ones, um, have been where,
um, I remember doing one without you
:
00:52:12,655 --> 00:52:13,975
actually, because I, we didn't even know.
:
00:52:13,975 --> 00:52:14,605
I didn't even know.
:
00:52:14,605 --> 00:52:16,165
So the best ones without
Paul, you're saying?
:
00:52:16,165 --> 00:52:16,495
Exactly.
:
00:52:16,675 --> 00:52:17,995
He's c
:
00:52:18,535 --> 00:52:21,025
Martin Bysh: I see cracks
appearing in the, in the perfect
:
00:52:21,025 --> 00:52:22,375
founder relationship already.
:
00:52:23,185 --> 00:52:23,365
Ben Shipway: Yeah.
:
00:52:23,635 --> 00:52:26,425
So, because I didn't even realize it was
gonna be a pitch and I remember dialing
:
00:52:26,425 --> 00:52:29,575
into this meeting and, and all of a sudden
some, there's a lot of people in the
:
00:52:29,575 --> 00:52:32,695
meeting and they're like, right, go, um.
:
00:52:33,370 --> 00:52:36,460
Actually sometimes when it, when,
when you just speak from your heart,
:
00:52:36,460 --> 00:52:39,760
you can probably tell that, you know,
Paul and I are very invested in this.
:
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:43,840
We see a, a huge future in it and really
believe in, in what we're doing here.
:
00:52:44,140 --> 00:52:47,800
Um, and, and actually, you know,
we've got an ongoing relationship
:
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,010
and we're still in conversation with
that, um, with that investment group.
:
00:52:51,010 --> 00:52:56,770
So, you know, sometimes dialing
down on all of the, the, the
:
00:52:56,770 --> 00:53:00,520
jargon, the investment jargon,
um, and, and just kind of speaking
:
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,380
from the heart is obviously Yeah.
:
00:53:02,380 --> 00:53:04,180
Has, has been quite, quite good for us.
:
00:53:04,210 --> 00:53:06,010
Paul Bennet: And what, what's also
interesting when you get into pitch
:
00:53:06,010 --> 00:53:09,040
events as well, so then you all,
all of a sudden have to tailor your
:
00:53:09,220 --> 00:53:12,010
pitch to say, right, you've got two
minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes.
:
00:53:12,010 --> 00:53:15,220
So you have all these various versions
of, of your pitch, which was quite
:
00:53:15,220 --> 00:53:16,270
interesting for us as well to do.
:
00:53:16,330 --> 00:53:16,570
Yeah.
:
00:53:17,110 --> 00:53:18,670
Martin Bysh: I used to find
that particularly challenging.
:
00:53:18,850 --> 00:53:22,000
I can't say anything
in 10 words every day.
:
00:53:22,060 --> 00:53:23,980
Two minute pitch for me
was a 20 minute pitch.
:
00:53:24,010 --> 00:53:24,190
Yeah.
:
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:25,930
Just trying to cling onto the stage.
:
00:53:25,930 --> 00:53:26,980
They were dragging me off.
:
00:53:27,715 --> 00:53:29,605
But, um, but you got, but
you got them at the end.
:
00:53:29,605 --> 00:53:32,065
So you raised, um, you raised some
cash, you got to a point where
:
00:53:32,065 --> 00:53:35,065
you built, um, rolled it out.
:
00:53:35,070 --> 00:53:35,340
Mm-hmm.
:
00:53:35,485 --> 00:53:39,385
Is it now, is it, is it, do you consider
it to be a beta right now or is it now
:
00:53:39,385 --> 00:53:42,175
the, the polished, I mean, it looks
great as I've said, but in terms of
:
00:53:42,175 --> 00:53:47,125
functionality or is it, or is it now doing
everything needs to do for its clients?
:
00:53:47,125 --> 00:53:49,405
At least in the sort of first pass,
I'm sure it's the sort of thing you
:
00:53:49,405 --> 00:53:52,555
develop for, for decades, you know,
broadening the market and adding
:
00:53:52,555 --> 00:53:53,785
additional features and so on.
:
00:53:53,785 --> 00:53:55,165
But, but for that first pass,
:
00:53:56,095 --> 00:53:56,515
Ben Shipway: yeah.
:
00:53:56,515 --> 00:53:57,595
Uh, good, good question.
:
00:53:57,595 --> 00:54:00,595
So, um, I think it's fair
to say we're now live.
:
00:54:01,405 --> 00:54:06,655
I think it would, beyond the sort of
prototype, um, put this in user's hands,
:
00:54:06,655 --> 00:54:09,085
see if it makes sense, perspective.
:
00:54:09,355 --> 00:54:11,185
We've got some great early feedback.
:
00:54:11,185 --> 00:54:16,825
And I guess what you'd say is we're
in that early, um, refinement, user
:
00:54:16,825 --> 00:54:20,905
feedback refinement stage, but we're
not seeing anything at this stage
:
00:54:20,905 --> 00:54:24,115
that leads us to think that we need
to, to make significant changes.
:
00:54:24,115 --> 00:54:29,845
So, um, we were, we're almost, we're
just about to close our pre-seed round
:
00:54:29,845 --> 00:54:31,795
and we're looking ahead to what's next.
:
00:54:32,005 --> 00:54:36,595
And I think, um, that, that's time,
that's come at a good time because,
:
00:54:36,985 --> 00:54:41,515
um, essentially the platform is live,
the apps are live, were, we're in, in
:
00:54:41,515 --> 00:54:46,225
incrementally improving that iteratively
with new features, with user feedback.
:
00:54:46,465 --> 00:54:50,455
Um, and of course we're, we're starting
our journey on the partnerships
:
00:54:50,455 --> 00:54:51,835
piece as we spoke about earlier.
:
00:54:52,225 --> 00:54:56,095
Um, so I think that's come at a
really nice ending cap to our sort
:
00:54:56,095 --> 00:54:58,615
of pre-seed test and learn phase.
:
00:54:59,515 --> 00:55:03,985
Actually sort of jumped a little bit on
the, the next phase of funding to help
:
00:55:03,985 --> 00:55:08,005
us then take that out, scale it and,
and really take it to market properly.
:
00:55:08,155 --> 00:55:08,395
Martin Bysh: Yeah.
:
00:55:08,485 --> 00:55:12,115
So you mentioned that you're nearly,
or you're about to close your pre-seed.
:
00:55:12,115 --> 00:55:14,665
Does that mean there's still
room in the pre-seed round?
:
00:55:15,369 --> 00:55:17,679
Paul Bennet: Yeah, so we're looking
to close the power pre-seed round
:
00:55:17,679 --> 00:55:21,459
and there is, uh, a small amount
available for people who would
:
00:55:21,459 --> 00:55:23,079
like to look at that opportunity.
:
00:55:24,489 --> 00:55:27,339
Martin Bysh: And And if, um,
if they wanted to, how would
:
00:55:27,339 --> 00:55:28,509
they get in contact with you
:
00:55:28,779 --> 00:55:31,869
Paul Bennet: so they can contact
me on Paul at Hustle app.
:
00:55:33,321 --> 00:55:35,521
Martin Bysh: so, so you mentioned
that you'd put together a round,
:
00:55:35,521 --> 00:55:37,531
initially it was friends and family.
:
00:55:38,011 --> 00:55:40,111
Subsequently, you mentioned
conversations with Angels.
:
00:55:40,111 --> 00:55:43,201
I dunno if you've had any conversations
with venture capitalists or, or
:
00:55:43,201 --> 00:55:44,771
anybody else , who's invested.
:
00:55:44,771 --> 00:55:46,361
Are these people that
you'd want on a cap table?
:
00:55:46,361 --> 00:55:48,911
Are these people that you'd, you
know, you'd want to have, you
:
00:55:48,911 --> 00:55:50,291
know, in your business who's in?
:
00:55:50,321 --> 00:55:50,711
Yeah.
:
00:55:51,011 --> 00:55:54,791
Ben Shipway: So, uh, as, as you said,
small amount of that initial pre-seed
:
00:55:54,791 --> 00:55:58,091
round was sort of friends and family
people we'd worked with before at, at
:
00:55:58,091 --> 00:56:02,291
a, at a sort of, um, a very consumer
type, uh, investment level, if you like.
:
00:56:02,711 --> 00:56:05,081
Um, and then due to our.
:
00:56:05,681 --> 00:56:09,371
Extensive experience, career
history and, and so on.
:
00:56:09,431 --> 00:56:14,381
Um, we started getting in front
of more seasoned investors, so
:
00:56:14,711 --> 00:56:19,601
people, um, later in their careers
who'd maybe, uh, built and exited
:
00:56:19,601 --> 00:56:21,761
businesses of their own, of their own.
:
00:56:21,941 --> 00:56:26,501
Um, so, so great experience on which we
can leverage and, and we've worked hard
:
00:56:26,501 --> 00:56:30,611
to bring a good, a good range of different
experiences from different sectors in.
:
00:56:30,941 --> 00:56:37,181
Um, and, you know, many of these
people at that sort of more seasoned
:
00:56:37,181 --> 00:56:40,751
investor level, um, also know
Paul and I in one way or another.
:
00:56:41,081 --> 00:56:43,721
Um, and, and it's great
to see them come on board.
:
00:56:43,721 --> 00:56:47,921
They believe in the product, but, but
also they back us as founders and, and
:
00:56:47,921 --> 00:56:50,021
our founding team to, to deliver on this.
:
00:56:50,561 --> 00:56:52,061
Martin Bysh: I mean, that,
that's a great place to be.
:
00:56:52,421 --> 00:56:53,681
If you know people that you know.
:
00:56:54,416 --> 00:56:59,186
Can invest, do, invest, are in a position
to, and they know and trust you because
:
00:56:59,186 --> 00:57:00,626
they've seen what you've done in the past.
:
00:57:00,626 --> 00:57:02,216
I think that goes a long way.
:
00:57:02,216 --> 00:57:04,226
Not everybody raising
money will have that.
:
00:57:04,556 --> 00:57:06,116
And of course it's
still possible to raise.
:
00:57:06,116 --> 00:57:08,576
It makes it a bit more challenging,
but I think that definitely
:
00:57:08,576 --> 00:57:10,136
makes it a a lot easier.
:
00:57:11,906 --> 00:57:13,376
Um, well, well look, thanks.
:
00:57:13,406 --> 00:57:15,086
Um, it's been really interesting for me.
:
00:57:15,086 --> 00:57:16,526
I mean, it's lovely to see you guys again.
:
00:57:16,526 --> 00:57:18,266
Lovely to see you doing so well.
:
00:57:18,746 --> 00:57:23,366
Seeing you getting behind what is clearly
a really exciting idea, very large market.
:
00:57:23,426 --> 00:57:26,786
Um, exciting that you are really kind
of the first entrance into that space
:
00:57:26,786 --> 00:57:30,386
and so, you know, should be able to
exploit it with what is, as I've already
:
00:57:30,386 --> 00:57:31,976
said, I think a really fabulous product.
:
00:57:32,306 --> 00:57:36,236
Um, so thank you for joining me and,
and good luck with the business.
:
00:57:36,626 --> 00:57:37,346
Ben and Paul: Thank you Martin.
:
00:57:37,346 --> 00:57:38,096
Thanks Martin.
:
00:57:38,096 --> 00:57:38,756
Great to be here.
:
00:57:39,669 --> 00:57:40,419
intro-outro: Thanks for watching that.
:
00:57:40,419 --> 00:57:42,409
I hope you found it
useful, and interesting.
:
00:57:42,499 --> 00:57:45,229
Um, it was shot as I think
I mentioned before, summer.
:
00:57:45,589 --> 00:57:49,009
Since then, I actually chose to
invest in a small way myself, um,
:
00:57:49,039 --> 00:57:52,849
convinced by Ben and Paul, who as
I said, I've known for a long time.
:
00:57:53,179 --> 00:57:57,739
Um, and by, um, the story, the size
of the market, et cetera, I mentioned
:
00:57:57,739 --> 00:58:01,999
this for, um, full disclosure, it
should not be taken as an endorsement.
:
00:58:02,389 --> 00:58:05,089
Um, you must do your own due
diligence on any business in
:
00:58:05,089 --> 00:58:06,109
which you choose to invest.
:
00:58:06,109 --> 00:58:06,439
Of course.
:
00:58:06,489 --> 00:58:09,519
And investing in startups is
inherently extremely risky.
:
00:58:10,059 --> 00:58:11,199
Um, anyway, thanks for watching.
:
00:58:11,199 --> 00:58:12,099
See you on the next one.
